{"id":3031,"date":"2013-12-02T05:44:02","date_gmt":"2013-12-01T23:44:02","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/intelligent-torvalds.74-208-171-134.plesk.page\/?p=3031"},"modified":"2022-08-07T20:58:16","modified_gmt":"2022-08-08T01:58:16","slug":"torture-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/?p=3031","title":{"rendered":"Torture, Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"

Since I faulted<\/a> Jonathan Edwards for making a bad argument to support the assertion in his sermon \u201cSinners in the Hands of an Angry God<\/a>\u201d that \u201cthe great and almighty creator and king of heaven and earth\u201d is the superlative torturer, I think it best that I look again at the verses that, if taken literally in some cases (in Revelation particularly), support that point of view.\u00a0 First, I reject the testimony of the Gadarene or Gerasene demoniac(s) on principle: an unclean spirit<\/i> is speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

They cried out, \u201cSon of God, leave us alone! \u00a0Have you come here to torment (\u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03c3\u03b1\u03b9, a form of \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03c9)[1]<\/sup><\/a> us \u00a0 before the time?\u201d<\/p>\n

Matthew 8:29 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

Then he cried out with a loud voice, \u201cLeave me alone, Jesus, Son of the Most High God! \u00a0I implore you by God \u2013 do not torment (\u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03c3\u1fc3\u03c2, another form of \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03c9) me!\u201d<\/p>\n

Mark 5:7 (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026and shouted with a loud\u00a0voice, \u201cLeave me alone, Jesus, Son of the Most High God! \u00a0I beg you, do not torment (\u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03c3\u1fc3\u03c2, another form of \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03c9) me!\u201d<\/p>\n

Luke 8:28b (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

This is like the impish boy corrected by his father in a public place who throws himself down on the ground screaming, \u201cPlease don\u2019t beat me!\u201d\u00a0 Mark and Luke recorded the real cause of the demon\u2019s histrionics:<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/td>\n(For Jesus had said to him, \u201cCome out of that man, you unclean [\u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03bd, a form of \u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2][2]<\/sup><\/a> spirit!\u201d)<\/p>\n

Mark 5:8 (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n

For Jesus had started commanding the evil (\u1f00\u03ba\u03b1\u03b8\u03ac\u03c1\u03c4\u1ff3, a form of \u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2) spirit to come out of the man.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:29a (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Mark\u2019s and Luke\u2019s accounts continue but diverge some as well:<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/td>\nJesus asked him, \u201cWhat is your name?\u201d\u00a0 And he said, \u201cMy name is Legion, for we are many.\u201d \u00a0He begged Jesus repeatedly not to send them out of the region.<\/p>\n

Mark 5:9, 10 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

Jesus then asked him, \u00a0 \u201cWhat is your name?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cLegion,\u201d because many demons (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03b1, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03bf\u03bd)[3]<\/sup><\/a> had entered him.\u00a0 And they began to beg him not to order them to depart into the abyss.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:30, 31 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

I have heard a sermon in which\u2014And they began to beg him not to order them to depart into the abyss<\/i>\u2014was proof positive that even the demons fear hell.\u00a0 Apart from taking the word of a liar as proof of anything, I agree, the unclean spirits probably do fear the wrath of God.\u00a0 I just won\u2019t accept this statement and their plea not to be tormented<\/i> as proof that God is a torturer.<\/p>\n

A form of the word \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03c9 occurred in Mathew\u2019s account of a Roman centurion who came to Jesus asking for help<\/i>:[4]<\/sup><\/a> Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible anguish<\/i> (\u03b4\u03b5\u03b9\u03bd\u1ff6\u03c2 \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03b9\u03b6\u03cc\u03bc\u03b5\u03bd\u03bf\u03c2, a form of \u03b2\u03b1\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03c9).[5]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0This was not just any old torture; it was terrible torture.\u00a0 And at the risk of being facetious I think it\u2019s important to recognize that Jesus\u2019 first response was not, \u201cOh, goody!\u00a0 I can\u2019t wait to see that!\u201d\u00a0 Nor did He say, \u201cWell, if your servant is suffering terrible anguish I\u2019m sure he did something to deserve it.\u201d\u00a0 Jesus<\/a> said to him, \u201cI will come and heal him.\u201d<\/i>[6]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

So, what about Jesus\u2019 apparent unwillingness to send the unclean spirits out of the region<\/i> or into the abyss before the time<\/i>?\u00a0 Did his compassion for them prove that deep down in his heart of hearts Jesus knew what kind of torturer He really is?\u00a0 Matthew and Luke recorded a curious bit of Jesus\u2019 insight into the travails of unclean spirits:<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

When an unclean (\u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03bd, a form of \u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2) spirit goes out of a person, it passes through waterless places looking for rest but does not find it. \u00a0Then it says, \u201cI will return to the home I left.\u201d\u00a0 When it returns, it finds the house empty, swept clean, and put in order. \u00a0Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil (\u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u03cc\u03c4\u03b5\u03c1\u03b1, a form of \u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u03cc\u03c2)[7]<\/sup><\/a> than itself, and they go in and live there, so the last state of that person is worse than the first.\u00a0 It will be that way for this evil (\u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u1fb7<\/a>, a form of \u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u03cc\u03c2) generation as well!<\/p>\n

Matthew 12:43-45 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

When an unclean (\u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03bd, a form of \u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2) spirit goes out of a person, it passes through waterless places looking for rest but not finding any.\u00a0\u00a0Then it says, \u201cI will return to the home I left.\u201d \u00a0When it returns, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil (\u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u03cc\u03c4\u03b5\u03c1\u03b1, a form of \u03c0\u03bf\u03bd\u03b7\u03c1\u03cc\u03c2) than itself, and they go in and live there, so the last state of that person is worse than the first.<\/p>\n

Luke 11:24-26 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

The point of this little bit of demonology in Matthew\u2019s Gospel account was, It will be that way for this evil generation as well!<\/i>\u00a0 But Luke recorded the demonology without its application.\u00a0 That intrigued me.\u00a0 Jesus could certainly relate to passing through waterless places looking for rest but not finding any<\/i>. \u00a0It is something that could elicit his compassion apart from some secret knowledge of Himself as a torturer.<\/p>\n

So Jesus allowed the unclean spirits to enter a nearby herd of pigs.\u00a0 Did they thank Him? Or praise Him?<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

So they came out and went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep slope into the lake and drowned in the water. \u00a0The herdsmen ran off, went into the town, and told everything that had happened to the demon-possessed (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03b9\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03ad\u03bd\u03c9\u03bd, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03b1\u03b9)[8]<\/sup><\/a> men. \u00a0Then the entire town came out to meet Jesus.<\/p>\n

Matthew 8:32b-34a (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/td>\n

So the unclean (\u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03b1, a form of \u1f00\u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2) spirits came out and went into the pigs.\u00a0 Then the herd rushed down the steep slope into the lake, and about two thousand were drowned in the lake. \u00a0Now the herdsmen ran off and spread the news in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened.<\/p>\n

Mark 5:13b, 14 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

So the demons (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03b1, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03bf\u03bd) came out of the man and went into the pigs, and the herd of pigs rushed down the steep slope into the lake and drowned. \u00a0When the herdsmen saw what had happened, they ran off and spread the news in the town and countryside. \u00a0So the people went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:33-35a (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

No, they drowned the pigs. \u00a0And here the unclean spirits\u2019 purpose comes into focus.\u00a0 This spectacle attracted a buyers\u2019 market of new homes to their location: Now the herdsmen ran off and spread the news in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened.<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

And when they saw [Jesus]\u2026<\/p>\n

Matthew 8:34b (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n

They came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03b9\u03b6\u03cc\u03bc\u03b5\u03bd\u03bf\u03bd, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03b1\u03b9) man sitting there, clothed and in his right mind \u2013 the one who had the \u201cLegion\u201d \u2013 and they were afraid (\u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd, a form of \u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ad\u03c9).[9]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0Those who had seen what had happened to the demon-possessed (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03b9\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03ad\u03bd\u1ff3, another form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03b1\u03b9) man reported it, and they also told about the pigs.<\/p>\n

Mark 5:15, 16 (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n

They found the man from whom the demons (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03b1, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03bf\u03bd) had gone out, sitting at Jesus\u2019 feet, clothed and in his right mind, and they were afraid (\u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd, a form of \u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ad\u03c9). \u00a0Those who had seen it told them how the man who had been demon-possessed (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03b9\u03c3\u03b8\u03b5\u03af\u03c2, another form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03b1\u03b9) had been healed.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:35b, 36 (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

So when the new-homes-for-unclean-spirits saw what had happened they were afraid<\/i> (\u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd, a form of \u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ad\u03c9).\u00a0 Both Gospel writers used \u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd<\/a>, the same word found in the phrase \u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd \u03c6\u03cc\u03b2\u03bf\u03bd[10]<\/sup><\/a> \u03bc\u03ad\u03b3\u03b1\u03bd[11]<\/sup><\/a> in Mark\u2019s gospel that was translated, They were overwhelmed by fear<\/i>.[12]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 This was the very fear Jesus called \u03b4\u03b5\u03b9\u03bb\u03bf\u03af,[13]<\/sup><\/a> a form of \u03b4\u03b5\u03b9\u03bb\u03cc\u03c2.[14]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 As \u03b4\u03b5\u03b9\u03bb\u03bf\u1fd6\u03c2<\/a> (another form of \u03b4\u03b5\u03b9\u03bb\u03cc\u03c2) this fear appears first in the list of the damned in Revelation.[15]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

\u2026they begged him to leave their region.<\/p>\n

Matthew 8:34c (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

Then they asked Jesus to leave their region.<\/p>\n

Mark 5:17 (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n

Then all the people of the Gerasenes and the surrounding region asked Jesus to leave them alone, for they were seized with great fear.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:37a (NET)<\/b><\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

And so the new-homes-for-unclean-spirits proved what path they were on when their \u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd prompted them to ask the only One standing between them and a Legion<\/em> of homeless unclean spirits to leave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

<\/td>\n<\/td>\nSo [Jesus] got into the boat and left.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:37b (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

So the unclean spirits got what they wanted all along.\u00a0 Unclean Spirits = 1; Jesus and compassion = 0.\u00a0 At least that\u2019s the way it seems if I quit here or only read Matthew\u2019s account.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

Matthew<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Mark<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Luke<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

<\/td>\nAs he was getting into the boat the man who had been demon-possessed (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03b9\u03c3\u03b8\u03b5\u1f76\u03c2, a form of \u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03bf\u03bd\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03bc\u03b1\u03b9) asked if he could go with him. \u00a0But Jesus did not permit him to do so.\u00a0 Instead, he said to him, \u201cGo to your home and to your people and tell them what the Lord has done for you, that he had mercy on you.\u201d \u00a0So he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis what Jesus had done for him, and all were amazed (\u1f10\u03b8\u03b1\u03cd\u03bc\u03b1\u03b6\u03bf\u03bd, a form of \u03b8\u03b1\u03c5\u03bc\u03ac\u03b6\u03c9).[16]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

Mark 5:18-20 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

The man from whom the demons (\u03b4\u03b1\u03b9\u03bc\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03b1) had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, \u201cReturn to your home, and declare what God has done for\u00a0 you.\u201d\u00a0 So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town what Jesus had done for him.<\/p>\n

Luke 8:38, 39 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Jesus left as they asked.\u00a0 He might have taught them Himself about eternal life except for their \u1f10\u03c6\u03bf\u03b2\u03ae\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd. \u00a0So they had only the testimony of a cleansed demoniac, and all were amazed<\/i>.<\/p>\n

\n

Torture, Part 2<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

\n
\n

<\/a>[4]<\/sup> Matthew 8:5 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[5]<\/sup> Matthew 8:6 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[6]<\/sup> Matthew 8:7 (NET) Table<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[12]<\/sup> Mark 4:41 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[13]<\/sup> Matthew 8:26<\/a>;\u00a0Mark 4:40 (NET)<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[15]<\/sup> Revelation 21:8 (NET)<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Since I faulted Jonathan Edwards for making a bad argument to support the assertion in his sermon \u201cSinners in the Hands of an Angry God\u201d that \u201cthe great and almighty creator and king of heaven and earth\u201d is the superlative … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2719,2223],"tags":[2115,2107,2109,2111,2118,2121,2123,2125,2070,2117,2120,2122,2124,2106,2108,2110,2114,2105,2116,2119,2112,2113],"class_list":["post-3031","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-section-three","category-torture","tag-luke-1124-26","tag-luke-828","tag-luke-829","tag-luke-830-31","tag-luke-833-35","tag-luke-835-36","tag-luke-837","tag-luke-838-39","tag-mark-441","tag-mark-513-14","tag-mark-515-16","tag-mark-517","tag-mark-518-20","tag-mark-57","tag-mark-58","tag-mark-59-10","tag-matthew-1243-45","tag-matthew-829","tag-matthew-832-34","tag-matthew-834","tag-matthew-86","tag-matthew-87"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3031","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=3031"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3031\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":19323,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3031\/revisions\/19323"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=3031"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=3031"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=3031"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}