{"id":3172,"date":"2014-01-12T02:14:39","date_gmt":"2014-01-11T20:14:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/intelligent-torvalds.74-208-171-134.plesk.page\/?p=3172"},"modified":"2016-06-04T06:32:26","modified_gmt":"2016-06-04T00:32:26","slug":"condemnation-or-judgment-part-4","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/?p=3172","title":{"rendered":"Condemnation or Judgment? – Part 4"},"content":{"rendered":"

Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. \u00a0\u201cWoe to you, Chorazin!\u00a0 Woe to you, Bethsaida!\u00a0 If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. \u00a0But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment<\/i> (\u1f10\u03bd \u1f21\u03bc\u03ad\u03c1\u1fb3 \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2) than for you!<\/i>[1]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

Here, potentially, I have another instance<\/a> where more bearable<\/i> meant that fewer people rise up at the judgment to condemn the inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon than the inhabitants of Chorazin and Bethsaida, those who witnessed Jesus\u2019 miracles and yet rejected his message.\u00a0 The same may be true of Capernaum relative to Sodom (Matthew 11:23, 24 NET).<\/p>\n

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven?\u00a0 No, you will be thrown down to Hades!\u00a0 For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. \u00a0But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region (\u03b3\u1fc7)[2]<\/sup><\/a> <\/em>of Sodom on the day of judgment (\u1f10\u03bd \u1f21\u03bc\u03ad\u03c1\u1fb3 \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2)<\/em> than for you!<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

But all of this assumes that my intuition<\/a> that \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2[3]<\/sup><\/a> is limited to judgment<\/i> and does not expand to mean condemnation<\/i> is correct.\u00a0 In Revelation \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2 may mean condemnation<\/i> as I understand it: Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, and he had an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth \u2013 to every nation, tribe, language, and people. \u00a0He declared in a loud voice: \u201cFear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment<\/i> (\u1f21 \u1f65\u03c1\u03b1[4]<\/sup><\/a> \u03c4\u1fc6\u03c2 \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2 \u03b1\u1f50\u03c4\u03bf\u1fe6) has arrived, and worship the one who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water!\u201d<\/i>[5]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

Granted, the first thing that happens after the announcement of the hour of his judgment<\/i> is a distinction I recognize as judgment<\/i>. \u00a0One like a son of man<\/i> seated on a cloud reaped the harvest of the earth for some unspecified purpose, at the command of an angel who came out of the temple<\/i> in heaven.[6]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven<\/i> and reaped the earth at the command of another angel who was in charge of the fire<\/i>.\u00a0 Those harvested in this way were the grapes from the vineyard of the earth<\/i>, and were tossed into the great winepress of the wrath of God<\/i>.[7]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

So far so good.\u00a0 But what I would consider the condemnation of the great winepress of the wrath of God<\/i> was spelled out in some detail later as the seven bowls containing God\u2019s wrath<\/i>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
First Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:2 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026ugly and painful sores appeared on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Second Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:3 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026the sea\u2026turned into blood, like that of a corpse, and every living creature that was in the sea died.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Third Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:4-7 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026the rivers and the springs of water\u2026turned into blood.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Fourth Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:8, 9 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026the sun\u2026was permitted to scorch people with fire.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Fifth Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:10, 11 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026on the throne of the beast so that darkness covered his kingdom, and people began to bite their tongues because of their pain.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Sixth Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:12-16 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\u2026on the great river Euphrates and dried up its water to prepare the way for the kings from the east.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Seventh Bowl<\/p>\n

Revelation 16:17-21 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

Then there were flashes of lightning, roaring, and crashes of thunder, and there was a tremendous earthquake \u2013 an earthquake unequaled since humanity has been on the earth, so tremendous was that earthquake.\u00a0 The great city was split into three parts and the cities of the nations collapsed….Every island fled away and no mountains could be found.\u00a0 And gigantic hailstones, weighing about a hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people\u2026<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

<\/a>After the third bowl containing God\u2019s wrath John recorded:\u00a0 Now I heard the angel of the waters saying: \u201cYou are just<\/a> \u2013 the one who is and who was, the Holy One \u2013 because <\/i>(\u1f45\u03c4\u03b9)[8]<\/sup><\/a> you have passed these judgments<\/i> (\u1f14\u03ba\u03c1\u03b9\u03bd\u03b1\u03c2, a form of \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03c9),<\/i>[9]<\/sup><\/a> because <\/i>(\u1f45\u03c4\u03b9) they poured out the blood of your saints and prophets, so you have given them blood to drink. \u00a0They got what they deserved!\u201d \u00a0Then I heard the altar reply, \u201cYes, Lord God, the All-Powerful, your judgments <\/i>(\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03b9\u03c2, a form of \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2)[10]<\/sup><\/a> are true and just!\u201d<\/i>[11]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 Here both \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03c9 and \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2 were used for the adverse sentence, condemnation<\/i> as I understand it.\u00a0 It makes my careful distinctions moot.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t recant because: 1) I\u2019m not comfortable deriving the meaning of words from the most esoteric and figurative book in the Bible; and 2) the angel\u2019s reasoning sounds vaguely demonic to me.\u00a0 (And, yes, I recognize the audacity of that statement.)\u00a0 Perhaps that is all demonic<\/i> means.\u00a0 Perhaps a demon is nothing more than an angel who has elevated his own reasoning above the will and word of God.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t believe that God is just or righteous because he passed these judgments<\/i> (KJV, hast judged thus<\/i>).<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t believe that God is just or righteous because He conforms to some abstract conception of justice or righteousness: they poured out the blood of your saints and prophets, so you have given them blood to drink. \u00a0They got what they deserved!<\/i>\u00a0 I believe that God is just and righteous because he is the Holy One<\/i>, who is and who was<\/i>.\u00a0 What He does, how He judges, is just or righteous because of who He is.\u00a0 Let God be proven true, and every human being shown up as a liar, <\/i>Paul wrote the Romans, just as it is written: <\/i>\u201cso that you will be justified in your words and will prevail when you are judged<\/i><\/b>.\u201d[12]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0But I suspect here that God is judged not only by human beings, but by angels.\u00a0 Or, perhaps, \u1f45\u03c4\u03b9 should have been translated\u2014regarding the fact that<\/i>\u2014as in Acts 13:34 (NET).<\/p>\n

But regarding the fact that (\u1f45\u03c4\u03b9)<\/em> he has raised Jesus from the dead, never again to be in a state of decay, God has spoken in this way: \u201c<\/i><\/b>I will give you the holy and trustworthy promises<\/i><\/b> made to David.\u201d<\/i><\/b><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I don\u2019t have any issue with the altar\u2019s reply\u2014Yes, Lord God, the All-Powerful, your judgments are true and just!<\/i>\u2014except its tacit and uncritical acceptance of the angel\u2019s reasoning (if his statement is translated correctly).\u00a0 And, no, I\u2019m not particularly troubled by a living altar<\/i> in heaven capable of speech and reason.<\/p>\n

Perhaps Genesis 1:11<\/a> and 12<\/a> is simply a poetic and figurative way of expressing God\u2019s creation of plant life on the earth, or perhaps it is meant to be understood as God\u2019s way of expressing how He created a living earth with a God-given ability to create plant life.\u00a0 What is conspicuously absent from the text is any mention of God\u2019s direct action in the creation of plant life, as is the case of animals in the sea and birds in the air (Genesis 1:21<\/a>), animals on the earth (Genesis 1:25<\/a>) and human beings (Genesis 1:26<\/a>).\u00a0 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live before him<\/i>,[13]<\/sup><\/a> Jesus said in a different but potentially related context.<\/p>\n

If the angel flying directly overhead<\/i> had the seven bowls in mind, condemnation<\/i> as I understand it, when he said \u1f21 \u1f65\u03c1\u03b1 \u03c4\u1fc6\u03c2 \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2 \u03b1\u1f50\u03c4\u03bf\u1fe6 (the hour of his judgment<\/i>) then Jesus\u2019 contrasts may have a different meaning as well.\u00a0 The regions of Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon may be places of refuge from ugly and painful sores<\/i>, rivers and springs of water turned into blood<\/i>, and the scorching fire<\/i> of the sun relative to Chorazin, Behtsaida, Capernaum or any town in Israel where the inhabitants rejected Jesus\u2019 disciples\u2019 message, The kingdom of heaven is near!<\/i>\u00a0 That is, of course, if the angel flying directly overhead<\/i> was reasoning correctly and not thinking as backwards as the angel of the waters (if the angel of the waters was translated correctly).\u00a0 So I\u2019m conflicted here and continue in the spirit of giving the angel flying directly overhead<\/i> the benefit of the doubt.<\/p>\n

\u201cFear God and give him glory, <\/i>the angel flying directly overhead<\/i> said, because the hour of his judgment<\/i> (\u1f21 \u1f65\u03c1\u03b1 \u03c4\u1fc6\u03c2 \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2 \u03b1\u1f50\u03c4\u03bf\u1fe6) has arrived, and worship the one who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water!\u201d<\/i>\u00a0 After the fourth bowl was poured out, people were scorched by the terrible heat, yet they blasphemed the name of God, who has ruling authority over these plagues, and they would not repent and give him glory<\/i>.[14]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 After the fifth bowl, They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their sufferings and because of their sores, but nevertheless they still refused to repent of their deeds<\/i>.[15]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 After the seventh bowl, gigantic hailstones, weighing about a hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people, but they blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, since it was so horrendous<\/i>.[16]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 This makes it more plausible that \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b5\u03c9\u03c2 here meant the condemnation<\/i> of the seven bowls, the great winepress of the wrath of God<\/i>, and not merely the judgment<\/i> of Revelation 14:14-19<\/a>.<\/p>\n

In that case, however, I would tend to understand Jesus\u2019 words like this: Furthermore, the Father does not<\/i> [condemn (\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03b5\u03b9, a form of \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03c9)] anyone, but has assigned all<\/i> [condemnation (\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, a form of \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2)] to the Son<\/i>\u2026[17]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself, and he has granted the Son authority to execute<\/i> (\u03c0\u03bf\u03b9\u03b5\u1fd6\u03bd, a form of \u03c0\u03bf\u03b9\u03ad\u03c9)[18]<\/sup><\/a> [condemnation (\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, a form of \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2)], because he is the Son of Man<\/i>.[19]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 The writer of Hebrews would have written, And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face<\/i> [condemnation (\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2)], so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation<\/i>.[20]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve been through this before<\/a>.[21]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 This is why I would like to keep \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03c9 as judge<\/i> rather than condemn<\/i> (\u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03b1\u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03bd\u03c9),[22]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0and \u03ba\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2 as judgment<\/i> rather than condemnation<\/i> (\u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03ac\u03ba\u03c1\u03b9\u03c3\u03b9\u03c2,[23]<\/sup><\/a> \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03ac\u03ba\u03c1\u03b9\u03bc\u03b1[24]<\/sup><\/a>).\u00a0 Though I suppose it doesn\u2019t matter really whether the Father assigned all<\/i> judgment or all<\/i> condemnation to the Son<\/i>, or whether He has the authority to execute<\/i> judgment or condemnation, if He does not judge or condemn the world because God sent Him into the world\u2026that the world should be saved through him<\/i>[25]<\/sup><\/a> <\/i>instead.<\/p>\n

Condemnation of Judgment? – Part 5<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

Back to Justice, Vengeance and Punishment<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

\n

 <\/p>\n

\n
\n

<\/a>[1]<\/sup> Matthew 11:20-22 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[5]<\/sup> Revelation 14:6, 7 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[6]<\/sup> Revelation 14:14-16 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[7]<\/sup> Revelation 14:17-19 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[11]<\/sup> Revelation 16:5-7 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[12]<\/sup> Romans 3:4 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[13]<\/sup> Luke 20:38 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[14]<\/sup> Revelation 16:9 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[15]<\/sup> Revelation 16:11 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[16]<\/sup> Revelation 16:21 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[17]<\/sup> John 5:22 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[19]<\/sup> John 5:26, 27 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[20]<\/sup> Hebrews 9:27, 28 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[21]<\/sup> Son of God \u2013 John, Part 2<\/a><\/i>; Son of God – John, Part 3<\/a><\/i>; Son of God – John, Part 4<\/a><\/i><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

<\/a>[25]<\/sup> John 3:17 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. \u00a0\u201cWoe to you, Chorazin!\u00a0 Woe to you, Bethsaida!\u00a0 If the miracles done in you had been done in … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1945,2719],"tags":[514,2231,1452,1913,1915,588,2224,2225,2226,2229,2230,2227,2228,553],"class_list":["post-3172","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-condemnation-or-judgment","category-section-three","tag-acts-1334","tag-hebrews-927-28","tag-john-317","tag-john-522","tag-john-526-27","tag-luke-2038","tag-matthew-1120-22","tag-matthew-1123-24","tag-revelation-146-7","tag-revelation-1611","tag-revelation-1621","tag-revelation-165-7","tag-revelation-169","tag-romans-34"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3172","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=3172"}],"version-history":[{"count":18,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3172\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":6807,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3172\/revisions\/6807"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=3172"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=3172"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=3172"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}