{"id":4171,"date":"2014-07-25T03:33:43","date_gmt":"2014-07-24T21:33:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/intelligent-torvalds.74-208-171-134.plesk.page\/?p=4171"},"modified":"2025-12-29T09:58:23","modified_gmt":"2025-12-29T15:58:23","slug":"condemnation-or-judgment-part-8","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/?p=4171","title":{"rendered":"Condemnation or Judgment? – Part 8"},"content":{"rendered":"

To reveal my own position and velocity<\/a>[1]<\/sup><\/a> it is probably past time that I at least outline my own religious background.\u00a0 And here, I\u2019ll take the lazy way out.\u00a0 Matt Slick has done it for me in his \u201cDoctrine Grid<\/a>\u201d[2]<\/sup><\/a> online.\u00a0 He acknowledged that \u201csome of these are debatable\u2026I do not claim absolute correctness on all points–only the essentials.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to debate his points beyond pointing out that Mr. Slick offers them as \u201ca layout of biblical orthodoxy\u201d and I offer them only as an outline of my religious background, both its content and tone.<\/p>\n

Though I live among them I don\u2019t understand my people, those of my religious background, as it pertains to the hope and promise of universal salvation in the Scriptures.\u00a0 I think I understand what might motivate someone like Richard Wayne Garganta<\/a> to eliminate \u201chell talk\u201d from the Bible.\u00a0 But I can\u2019t get a handle on what might motivate someone to eliminate the hope and promise of universal salvation from the Bible.\u00a0 \u201cIt\u2019s not there!\u201d is a form of blindness.<\/p>\n

A puff piece[3]<\/sup><\/a> about Matt Chandler in the May 2014 issue of Christianity Today<\/em> caught my attention as I considered these things:<\/p>\n

For a long time, Chandler had prayed for his dad to know Christ.\u00a0 \u201cI remember being confused with the idea of [Dad having] free will, but then me asking God to save him. To me those two things were incompatible.\u201d<\/em>
\nHe found the answer in classically reformed teachings, especially those of John Piper. Chandler embraces the view that God predestines some to heaven and others to hell.[4]<\/sup><\/a><\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

<\/a>I\u2019m not going to say much about free will<\/em> except to offer my opinion that it represents the contingent choices we make\u2014contingent choices with a really good press agent.\u00a0 I will look deeper into \u201cthe view that God predestines some to heaven and others to hell.\u201d\u00a0 We certainly knew of that view in my religion. \u00a0Our essentially fundamentalist church had separated from the Congregationalists as they embraced \u201cmodernism<\/a>.\u201d[5]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 It was joined later by others separating from the Presbyterians for similar reasons, a group who held views similar to Matt Chandler\u2019s.\u00a0\u00a0 <\/a>My family shared a more \u201cwhosoever will may come\u201d view.<\/p>\n

It seemed fairer somehow.\u00a0 Could God be other than fair?\u00a0 He has given everyone on the planet an equal opportunity to choose to trust Him.\u00a0 Salvation, therefore, is left ultimately up to an individual\u2019s choice.\u00a0 That seemed consistent enough with the Old Testament, and except for Paul\u2019s writings and Jesus\u2019 sayings more or less consistent with the New Testament as I understood it at the time.<\/p>\n

So, is \u201cGod predestines some to heaven and others to hell\u201d a fair inference from God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden<\/em>[6]<\/sup><\/a>? \u00a0I still don\u2019t think so. \u00a0It requires me to reject the hope and promise of universal salvation revealed in Scripture (a Christian heresy<\/a>[7]<\/sup><\/a> according to Matt Slick and a host of others, my people all).\u00a0 Consider the context (Romans 9:17, 18 NET):<\/p>\n

For the scripture says to Pharaoh: \u201cFor this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you<\/strong>, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth<\/strong>.\u201d\u00a0 So then, God has mercy (\u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03b5\u1fd6, a form of \u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03ad\u03c9<\/a>)<\/em> on whom he chooses (\u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03b5\u03b9, a form of \u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03c9<\/a>) <\/em>to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses (\u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03b5\u03b9, a form of \u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03c9) <\/em>to harden.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I can say with full conviction on the authority of Scripture that the chariots of Pharaoh and his army <\/em>[ye<\/sup>h\u00f4v\u00e2h<\/a>] has thrown into the sea, and his chosen officers were drowned in the Red Sea<\/em>.[8]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 I can\u2019t say with the same confidence that Pharaoh or his army will spend eternity in hell.\u00a0 \u00a0Ye<\/sup>h\u00f4v\u00e2h<\/em>, as revealed by Paul, thinks differently than Matt Chandler or Matt Slick on this subject (Romans 11:30, 31 NET).<\/p>\n

Just as you were formerly disobedient (\u1f20\u03c0\u03b5\u03b9\u03b8\u03ae\u03c3\u03b1\u03c4\u03b5, a form of \u1f00\u03c0\u03b5\u03af\u03b8\u03b5\u03b9\u03b1<\/a>)<\/em>, so they too have now been disobedient (\u1f20\u03c0\u03b5\u03af\u03b8\u03b7\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd, another form of \u1f00\u03c0\u03b5\u03b9\u03b8\u03ad\u03c9<\/a>)<\/em> in order that, by the mercy (\u1f10\u03bb\u03ad\u03b5\u03b9, a form of \u1f14\u03bb\u03b5\u03bf\u03c2<\/a>)<\/em> shown to you, they too may now receive mercy (\u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03b7\u03b8\u1ff6\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, another form of \u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03ad\u03c9).<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Paul referred specifically here to his own people, my fellow countrymen, who are Israelites<\/em>,[9]<\/sup><\/a> and all those loved by God in Rome, called to be saints<\/em>.[10]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 But I can\u2019t find any compelling reason to discriminate against an ancient Pharaoh and his army: For God has consigned all people to disobedience<\/em> (\u1f00\u03c0\u03b5\u03af\u03b8\u03b5\u03b9\u03b1\u03bd, another form of \u1f00\u03c0\u03b5\u03af\u03b8\u03b5\u03b9\u03b1) so that he may show mercy<\/em> (\u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03ae\u03c3\u1fc3, another form of \u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03ad\u03c9) to\u2026all<\/em>.[11]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 So while\u2014it does not depend on human desire <\/em>(\u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03bf\u03bd\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2, another form of \u03b8\u03ad\u03bb\u03c9)or exertion, but on God who shows mercy<\/a><\/em> (\u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u1ff6\u03bd\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2, another form of \u1f10\u03bb\u03b5\u03ad\u03c9 )[12]<\/sup><\/a>\u2014is a potent antidote to the \u201cwhosoever will may come\u201d religious view of my youth, it is clearly coupled with the hope of universal salvation: God has consigned all people to disobedience<\/em> so that he may show mercy<\/em> to\u2026all<\/em>.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Jesus\u2019 saying\u2014No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws<\/em> (\u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u1fc3, a form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9<\/a>) him, and I will raise him up at the last day<\/em>[13]<\/sup><\/a>\u2014is a stronger refutation of \u201cwhosoever will may come\u201d unless one takes \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u1fc3 to mean \u201cSoftly and tenderly Jesus is calling.\u201d[14]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 In that case, Jesus\u2019 promise of universal salvation\u2014And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw<\/em> (\u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u03c9, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) all\u2026to myself<\/em>[15]<\/sup><\/a>\u2014becomes little more than a promise of equal opportunity:\u00a0 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will softly and tenderly call all people to myself.\u00a0 But I\u2019m not convinced that \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u1fc3 and \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u03c9 will dance to that tune.<\/p>\n

Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, called to it softly and tenderly, and it rose up out of its scabbard and struck the high priest\u2019s slave, cutting off his right ear.\u00a0 The Scripture says, Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, pulled it out<\/em> (\u03b5\u1f35\u03bb\u03ba\u03c5\u03c3\u03b5\u03bd, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) and struck the high priest\u2019s slave, cutting off his right ear<\/a><\/em>.[16]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0The King James translators chose drew<\/em> for \u03b5\u1f35\u03bb\u03ba\u03c5\u03c3\u03b5\u03bd, making the connection to Jesus\u2019 sayings clear even in English: Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest\u2019s servant, and cut off his right ear<\/a><\/em>.[17]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 Here any English speaking person might consider how much say the sword had regarding when, how or for what purpose it was drawn<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\u201cThrow your net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some<\/em> [fish],\u201d Jesus told his disciples. \u00a0So they threw the net, and were not able to pull<\/em> (\u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c3\u03b1\u03b9, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) it in because of the large number of fish<\/em>.[18]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 Here the net resisted, because it was too heavy for the disciples to pull up out of the water and into their boat.\u00a0 But it was no match for Peter dragging it ashore: So Simon Peter went aboard and pulled<\/em> (\u03b5\u1f35\u03bb\u03ba\u03c5\u03c3\u03b5\u03bd, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) the net to shore<\/em>.[19]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 And again, the King James translators made the comparison to Jesus\u2019 sayings obvious:\u00a0 they were not able to draw it in<\/em>.[20]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

Here are a few more examples of forms of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9 from Luke and James:<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
\n

\u201cWhosoever will may come\u201d<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Bible<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

But when her owners saw their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and softly and tenderly called them into the marketplace before the authorities.<\/td>\nBut when her owners saw their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged (\u03b5\u1f35\u03bb\u03ba\u03c5\u03c3\u03b1\u03bd, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) them into the marketplace before the authorities.<\/p>\n

Acts 16:19 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

The whole city was stirred up, and the people rushed together.\u00a0 They seized Paul and softly and tenderly called him out of the temple courts, and immediately the doors were shut.<\/td>\nThe whole city was stirred up, and the people rushed together.\u00a0 They seized Paul and dragged (\u03b5\u1f37\u03bb\u03ba\u03bf\u03bd, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) him out of the temple courts, and immediately the doors were shut.<\/p>\n

Acts 21:30 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

But you have dishonored the poor!\u00a0 Are not the rich oppressing you and softly and tenderly calling you into the courts?<\/td>\nBut you have dishonored the poor!\u00a0 Are not the rich oppressing you and dragging (\u1f15\u03bb\u03ba\u03bf\u03c5\u03c3\u03b9\u03bd, another form of \u1f11\u03bb\u03ba\u03cd\u03c9) you into the courts?<\/p>\n

James 2:6 (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

It does not behoove the God-predestines-some-to-heaven-and-others-to-hell folk to call out the whosoever-will-may-come folk on this point.\u00a0 The former are as opposed to universal salvation as the latter.\u00a0 Still, it seems to me if I understand Jesus\u2019 sayings correctly\u2014No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me <\/em>[drags] him<\/em> and, And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will <\/em>[drag] all\u2026to myself<\/em>\u2014I get a clearer picture of the human condition and the hope and promise of God in Christ.<\/p>\n

<\/a>The only person I want to condemn to hell is my old man<\/a>, not my father, but the sin in my flesh.\u00a0 I have had a remarkably blessed life.\u00a0 No one raped and murdered my mother, my sister, my daughter or my wives.\u00a0 Divorce is the most difficult sin I\u2019ve been called upon to forgive.\u00a0 And I love the women who divorced me.\u00a0 I certainly wouldn\u2019t want to see them condemned to an eternity in hell because they found living with me unendurable.\u00a0 But by wishing my old man condemned to hell I have condemned the whole world.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Gentle Heart suggested that final judgment could be like the judgment of wheat and chaff: \u201cSo maybe John 5:28 and 29 can be talking about all us dead being raised and our \u2018old selves\u2019 get condemned and our \u2018new selves\u2019 live eternally with the Lord.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s an intriguing idea that seems to satisfy the long name of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
\n

The Long Name of God<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n

The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, and abounding in loyal love and faithfulness, keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.<\/p>\n

Exodus 34:6, 7a (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n

But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children\u2019s children, to the third and fourth generation.<\/p>\n

Exodus 34:7b (NET)<\/p>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

The main objection would be the apparent need for postmortem salvation in some (or, many) cases.\u00a0 But that is really only an objection from the human perspective, the impossibility of believing in Jesus for salvation when one faces Him in judgment.\u00a0 But from the divine perspective there is no law or rule, no circumstance of life or death that prohibits God from showing mercy: I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy<\/em>.[21]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 Salvation does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy<\/em>.[22]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0And, God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all<\/em>.[23]<\/sup><\/a> \u00a0In fact this is why we work hard and struggle<\/em>, Paul encouraged Timothy, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers<\/em>.[24]<\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>There is a satisfying symmetry to the idea that universal salvation entails universal condemnation.\u00a0 But I\u2019ve had a lifetime to identify with the new man.[25]<\/sup><\/a>\u00a0 If God condemned the sin in my flesh to an eternity in hell, I think I could bid the old man Godspeed and good riddance.\u00a0 But consider one born from above by the calling of God at, or after, the final judgment.<\/p>\n

I know how often I have oscillated between the old and new man when they were in the same geographical and space\/time location.\u00a0 Imagine the trauma of oscillating between the more familiar old man and the relatively strange new man when one is in hell and the other is face to face with God.\u00a0 Still, the Holy Spirit has seen, and sees, me through my conflict and confusion.\u00a0 I don\u2019t doubt that He could comfort one in the throes of that terror.<\/p>\n

I can\u2019t say this is the way God fulfills his desire to be merciful while He by no means leaves the guilty unpunished<\/em>. \u00a0I can only say, Gentle Heart, in the spirit of Jonathan Edwards\u2019 argument for God as the Superlative Torturer<\/a>, that if we can imagine this wheat and chaff solution to the dilemma of universal salvation, how many more solutions can the living God conceive and execute to satisfy the desire of his, and your, gentle heart.<\/p>\n

\n
Condemnation or Judgment? – Part 9<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Romans, Part 58<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Condemnation or Judgment? – Part 16<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Romans, Part 84<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Will, Aret\u00e9 and Troy<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Father, Forgive Them – Part 5<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to A Monotonous Cycle Revisited, Part 3<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Peter’s First Gospel Proclamation Revisited, Part 3<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Patterns of Evidence: Exodus<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Westworld, Part 4<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Who Am I? Part 14<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
Back to Balaam, Balak and the 24,000, Part 1<\/em><\/a><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
\n

<\/a>[1]<\/sup> Who Am I? Part 1<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[2]<\/sup> Doctrine Grid<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[3]<\/sup> I call it a puff piece<\/em> because I have no doubt that the editors will publish a hatchet job<\/em> about the very same preacher if he slips financially or sexually, or strays doctrinally too far from what the editors feel they can sell as Christianity Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n

<\/a>[4]<\/sup> \u201cThe Joy-Stung Preacher,\u201d Joe Maxwell, Christianity Today<\/em>, May 2014, p. 39<\/p>\n

<\/a>[5]<\/sup> Theological Liberalism<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[6]<\/sup> Romans 9:18 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[7]<\/sup> Can a Christian be a universalist?<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[8]<\/sup> Exodus 15:4 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[9]<\/sup> Romans 9:3, 4 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[10]<\/sup> Romans 1:7 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[11]<\/sup> Romans 11:32 (NET)\u00a0 A note in the NET acknowledges that \u201cthem\u201d was added for stylistic reasons.<\/p>\n

<\/a>[12]<\/sup> Romans 9:16 (NET) Table<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[13]<\/sup> John 6:44 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[14]<\/sup> Softly and Tenderly<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[15]<\/sup> John 12:32 (NET)\u00a0 NET note: \u201cGrk <\/em>\u2018all.\u2019 The word \u2018people\u2019 is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity (cf. KJV \u2018all men\u2019).\u201d\u00a0 See: Colossians 1:15-20 (NET)<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[16]<\/sup> John 18:10a (NET) Table<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[17]<\/sup> John 18:10a (NKJV) Table<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[18]<\/sup> John 21:6 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[19]<\/sup> John 21:11a (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[20]<\/sup> John 21:6 (NKJV)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[21]<\/sup> Exodus 33:19b (NET) Table<\/a><\/p>\n

<\/a>[22]<\/sup> Romans 9:16 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[23]<\/sup> Romans 11:32 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[24]<\/sup> 1 Timothy 4:10 (NET)<\/p>\n

<\/a>[25]<\/sup> Ephesians 4:22-24<\/a>; Colossians 3:9, 10 (NET)<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

To reveal my own position and velocity[1] it is probably past time that I at least outline my own religious background.\u00a0 And here, I\u2019ll take the lazy way out.\u00a0 Matt Slick has done it for me in his \u201cDoctrine Grid\u201d[2] … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1945,2719],"tags":[2533,2530,2531,1783,66,2319,1829,2532,2527,1166,2529,2528,2526,1693,1694,544,1295,1332],"class_list":["post-4171","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-condemnation-or-judgment","category-section-three","tag-1-timothy-410","tag-acts-1619","tag-acts-2130","tag-exodus-154","tag-exodus-3319","tag-exodus-346-7","tag-exodus-347","tag-james-26","tag-john-1232","tag-john-1810","tag-john-2111","tag-john-216","tag-john-644","tag-romans-1130-31","tag-romans-1132","tag-romans-916","tag-romans-917-18","tag-romans-918"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4171","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=4171"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4171\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":28570,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4171\/revisions\/28570"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=4171"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=4171"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/religiousmind.net\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=4171"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}